Used Okuma Lu 45 for sale (235)

Condition: used, turning diameter over bed 460 mm turning dia. over face-slide 256 mm Hfjdpfx Afoxwp Ebocof turning length 1250 mm centre distance 1250 mm centre height 230 mm spindle bore 55 mm spindle turning speed range 35 - 1800 U/min weight of the machine ca. 2,7 t dimensions of machine L x W x H 2,75 x 1,20 x 1,42 m Accessories: 3-jaw chuck 250 mmø, MULTIFIX-head with 3 inserts, solid steady

Condition: used, _____ Description: Year of manuf. : 2022 Control : Okuma OSP-P300 SA Turning diam. : 650 mm Turning length : 1000 mm Main spindle: Technology:Motor spindle Speed:4,200 rpm Power:22 kW Hfedpfxjwu I Iro Afcjf Torque:427 Nm spindle bore:91 mm Hollow clamping cylinder:86 mm C-axis:High precision package Chuck:SMW KNCS-N 275-86 K8 Sub spindle: Technology:Motor spindle Speed:5,000 rpm Power:22 kW Torque:420 Nm spindle bore:80 mm Hollow clamping cylinder:77 mm C-axis:High precision package Chuck:SMW BHD-FC 210-52-3 Tool carrier X/Y/Z/B: Technology:Milling spindle Speed:12.000 rpm Power:22 kW Torque:120 Nm Tool holder:HSK 63 Y-axis:250 mm (+/- 125 mm) B-axis:240° Tool magazin: Number of stations:80 Equipment: Measuring systems:Direct in X/Y/Z axis (glass scales) Chip disposal:Chip conveyor Coolant supply:IKZ system, 70 bar Coolant temperature control:Deltatherm E4 Chip rinsing:working area, manual gun Accuracy package:C-axis high accuracy Software package:5-axis auto-tuning Software option:Multifunction tool Gear cutting software package:Gear hobbing, gear peeling Control extension:Dialogue programming Workpiece measurement:Renishaw measuring probe Tool measurement:Tool setter Tool breakage monitoring:Renishaw TRS2 B-axis:NC function and turning function Bar loader:LNS Quickload Servo III+ Automation preparation:Robot interface Work area door:Automatic Set-up mode:Electronic handwheel

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2018, Okuma GENOS L2000-e Year: 2018 Max turning dia ( mm ) Ø200 Max work length ( mm ) 380 Travels X axis (mm) 165 Z axis (mm) 400 C axis 360° ( 0.001° increments) Spindle speed ( min-1 ) 5,000 Spindle nose JIS A2-6 Turret type V12 VDI (Axial) No. of tools 12 (L/M) OD tool shank (mm) 20×20 ID tool shank dia (mm) Ø32 Milling tool Spindle speed (rpm) 6,000 Rapid traverse (X, Z ) m/min X:25 , Z:30 Rapid traverse (C) (rpm) C：200 Tailstock quill diameter (mm) Ø90 Tapered bore type MT.5 (revolving center) Quill travel (mm) 100 Motors, Main spindle (20min/cont) (kW) VAC15/11 Milling tool spindle (kW) PREX 4.0/1.8 (25min／cont) Coolant pump motor (kW) 0.8 Machine size Height (mm) 1,620 Floor space (mm) 2100×1850 Weight (kg) 3,700 Accessories/options: - C-axis - static tool holders - tailstock Hsdpfx Afoyk Hwijcsff - foot pedals for chuck and tailstock - center sleeve for tailstock - swarf conveyor - coolant tank - LNS feeder - documentations

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2007, functionality: fully functional, input voltage: 400 V, travel distance X-axis: 2,050 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 850 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 750 mm, number of slots in tool magazine: 36, table length: 2,200 mm, table width: 850 mm, controller model: OKUMA-OSP-HMI, coolant supply: 15 bar, distance table center to spindle nose: 950 mm, spindle motor power: 22 W, number of spindles: 36, rapid traverse Z-axis: 16 m/min, rapid traverse X-axis: 16 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 16 m/min, spindle nose: BT 50, spindle speed (max.): 10,000 rpm, spindle speed (min.): 50 rpm, table load: 2,500 kg, tool diameter: 120 mm, tool length: 400 mm, tool weight: 20 g, Equipment: documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, OKUMA-OSP-HMI 3-Axis Vertical Machining Center with CNC Hsdpfxju Dinks Afcoff

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2019, 2019 OKUMA MA600HII 4-Axis Milling Machine with OSP P300M Control, 630 x 630mm Table max loads up to 1,200kg, high-speed Spindle 12,000rpm, Traverse Speed 60m/min, full-size Tool Magazine with 171 Stations, X Axis Travel 1000, Z Axis Travel 1000, Y Axis Travel 900. S/No. 224574 (2019) A charge of €4500 for preparation and loading onto suitable transport will be automatically added to your invoice should you be successful in purchasing this item. Hodpfsyplrpox Afcjff Location: These lots are located in Mielec, Poland. Please visit our website for more details. Auction 3459

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2000, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 0082, turning length: 1,500 mm, turning diameter: 580 mm, travel distance X-axis: 598 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 230 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 1,660 mm, TECHNICAL DETAILS Max. turning diameter: 580 mm Turning length: 1,500 mm Swing diameter over bed: 610 mm Swing diameter over cross slide: 580 mm Travels X-axis: 598 mm Y-axis: 230 mm Z-axis: 1,660 mm Main spindle Speed range – main spindle: 12 – 2,800 rpm Spindle bearing diameter: 150 mm Spindle bore: 110 mm Spindle nose: JIS A2-11 Drive power – main spindle: 37 (30) kW C-axis: 0.001° Feeds Rapid traverse X / Y: 12,000 mm/min Rapid traverse Z: 20,000 mm/min Rapid traverse C: 100 min⁻¹ Cutting feed rate X / Z / Y: 0.001 – 1,000 mm/rev Hodpjxb Awfjfx Afcoff Tool turret Type: H2 ATC Number of tool stations: 2 (1x L-Tool / 1x M-Tool) Driven stations: infinitely variable Speed range – driven tool stations: 40 – 3,000 rpm Tool shank height: 25 mm Boring bar diameter: 50 mm Tailstock Quill diameter: 120 mm Quill stroke: 170 mm Tailstock taper: MT 5 Tool magazine Number of tool stations: 50 Tool holder: MAS BT 50 Max. tool diameter: 170 mm Max. tool length: 350 mm Max. tool weight: 20 kg Magazine drive: 3.2 kW MACHINE DETAILS Control: OSP 7000 L Space requirements & Weight Approx. footprint: 6.0 x 3.2 x 3.0 m Approx. machine weight: 18.5 t Electrical data Total connected load: 53 kVA Rated voltage: 400 V Number of phases: 3 P Frequency: 50 Hz EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor Central coolant system High-pressure coolant Signal lamp Hydraulic unit Steady rest Three-jaw chuck Schunk - ROTA NC 400-120 Electronic handwheel 44 assorted tool holders

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2007, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 762 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 460 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 460 mm, controller model: OSP-P200M, rotational speed (max.): 15,000 rpm, TECHNICAL DETAILS Travel X-axis: 762 mm Travel Y-axis: 460 mm Travel Z-axis: 460 mm Spindle speed range: 50 - 15,000 rpm Rapid traverse X-axis: 40 m/min Rapid traverse Y-axis: 40 m/min Rapid traverse Z-axis: 32 m/min Hfjdpfsx I Ecyex Afcof Tool magazine: 32 positions MACHINE DETAILS Control: OSP-P200M Main drive motor: 22 kW Dimensions & Weight Required space (L x W x H): 2,850 x 2,810 x 2,750 mm Machine weight: 7,200 kg EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor Internal coolant supply Standard filtration unit

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2008, functionality: fully functional, Controller OKUMA OSP P200-M Table size 1000 x 460 mm Table load 700 kgs X travel 762 mm Y travel 460 mm Z travel 460 mm Spindle speed 15000 rpm Tool holder type MAS BT40 ATC magazin 20-fold Weight 6500 kgs Dimensions LxWxH = 2750 x 2160 x 2715 mm Features, accessories - Chip conveyor - Coolant unit - Spindle cooler - CTS - Manuals Hfjdpfjuu Rwyox Afcof Very good condition.It will be sold because of liquidation of production.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 1998, functionality: fully functional, Controller OSP700L Swing dia 300 mm Turning dia 170 mm Between centers 340 mm X travel 150 mm Z travel 350 mm C axis 360/0,001 degree Spindle hole D42 mm Chuck dia 200 mm Turret 12-fold Tool holder type VDI30 Spindle speed 50 - 6000 rpm Hsdpsvmzc Uefx Afcoff Spindle power 5,5/7,5 kW Power required 400V, 15 kVA Weight 3500 kg Dimensions LxWxH = 2300 x 1635 x 1850 mm Accessories - C axis and live tool turret - Hydraulic tailstock - Coolant unit - Chip conveyor - Hydraulic 3 jaws, D160 mm chuck - Machine light Good condition, still under power.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1974, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 817, Complete Cold Heading Line (includes 3 machines) One Die Two Blow Header Hsdetqu U Tepfx Afcsff Max. Wire Cut-Off Diameter: 25 mm Cut-off length: 300 mm Shaft Length Under head: 260 mm Extrusion machine Trimming machine

Year of construction: 1998, condition: excellent (used), functionality: fully functional, TECHNICAL DETAILS x-way: 720 mm y-way: 630 mm z-way: 630 mm control: OKUMA OSP 7000 pallet size: 500 x 500 mm spindle speed: 10 - 5000 rpm tool holder: 10-fold pallet station tool holder: MAS BT 50 Hedpfx Afek R Tp Ujceff tool places: 200 pieces EQUIPMENT - tool breakage probe - Renishaw probe - High pressure coolant system - Coolant mist extraction system - Spindle load and torque monitoring - Thread milling - Chip conveyor The scope of delivery is not shown in the pictures but in the description text.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2002, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 1,020 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 510 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 525 mm, workpiece weight (max.): 680 kg, number of slots in tool magazine: 20, TECHNICAL DETAILS Control: OSP-U100L Travel X: 1,020 mm Travel Y: 510 mm Travel Z: 525 mm Table Load capacity: 680 kg Clamping area: 1,200 mm x 510 mm Tool changer Magazine positions: 20 EQUIPMENT Hsdpfjwtrbasx Afcsff - Chip conveyor

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2014, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 760 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 760 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 760 mm, table load: 500 kg, spindle speed (max.): 15,000 rpm, TECHNICAL DETAILS X-axis travel: 760 mm Y-axis travel: 760 mm Z-axis travel: 760 mm Spindle center to table surface: 50 to 810 mm Spindle end to table center: 135 to 895 mm Table size: 500 x 500 mm Max. load capacity: 500 kg Index positions: 360 Speed range: 50 to 15,000 rpm Hodjxvq Hdepfx Afcjff Number of speed ranges: stepless Taper: NT No. 40 Spindle diameter: 70 mm Feed Rapid traverse (X/Y/Z): 60,000 mm/min Manual feed (X/Y/Z): 1 to 60,000 mm/min Tool changer Tool holder: Standard MAS BT40 Magazine capacity: 48 stations Max. tool diameter (adjacent positions occupied): 70 mm Max. tool diameter (adjacent positions free): 150 mm Max. tool length: 300 mm Max. tool weight: 10 kg MACHINE DETAILS Total power requirement: 43 kW Dimensions & Weight Space requirement: 2.7 x 4.73 x 2.87 m Machine weight: 11.5 t

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2014, functionality: fully functional, Ref. No.: LT-2418 Manufacturer: Okuma Model: Multus U3000 1SW-1500 Control: Okuma OSP-P300S-H Year of manufacture: 2014 Commissioning: 2.015 Language Keyboards / Software: International / English Country of origin: Japan Technical Characteristics: Capacity: Turning on bed: Ø 650 mm Distance between points: 1.500 mm Maximum turning diameter: Ø 650 mm Maximum turning length: 1.500 mm Bar pitch (main spindle): Ø 70 mm Bar passage (opposite spindle): Ø 70 mm Main spindle: Spindle diameter: Ø 140 mm Spindle nose (type): JIS A2-8 Spindle inside diameter: Ø 80 mm Speed ranges: 2 ranges, infinitely variable Spindle speed: 50 - 4.200 rpm Motor: 22/15 kW (30 min/cont) Opposing spindle: Spindle diameter: Ø 140 mm Spindle nose (type): JIS A2-8 Spindle inside diameter: Ø 80 mm Speed range: 2 ranges, infinitely variable Spindle speed: 50 - 4.200 rpm Motor: 22/15 kW (30 min/cont) X-axis: Stroke: 645 mm Rapid traverse: 50.000 mm/min Z axis: Stroke: 1,600 mm Rapid traverse: 50.000 mm/min Y-axis: Stroke: 250 [± 125] mm Rapid traverse: 40,000 mm/min W-axis: Stroke: 1,594 mm Rapid traverse: 30.000 mm/min B axis: Controlled angle: -30° to +210° (increment 0.001°) Rapid traverse: 30 rev/min C axis: Controlled angle: 360° (0.0001° increment) Rapid traverse: 200 rpm Turret: Type: H1 Number of tools: 1 (L or M tool) Tool dimensions: Turning outside: 25 x 25 mm Turning inside: Ø 40 mm Milling head: Spindle speed: 50 - 12.000 rpm Speed ranges: 2 speed ranges, infinitely variable Motor: 25/19 kW (3 min/cont) Tool changer (ATC): Cone Toolholder: HSK-A63 Number of tools: 40 Hsdpfxou U E Ave Afcsff Max. diameter of adjacent tools: ø 90 mm Maximum diameter of non-adjacent tools: ø 130 mm Maximum tool length: 400 mm Maximum weight of each tool: 10 Kgf Dimensions and weights: Height of the machine: 2.905 mm Occupied floor area: 4,480 x 2,995 mm (4,480 x 2,995 mm) Machine weight: 16,200 kg

Condition: repair required (used), turning length: 400 mm, spindle bore: 75 mm, spindle speed (max.): 3,800 rpm, General information about the machine We are offering a used lathe from the manufacturer Okuma. The machine is offered as a spare parts carrier. The machine is running but not all functions can be guaranteed. The keys for operation are missing. The machine is in our warehouse and can be inspected under power Technical data - CNC control: OSP 5000L-G CNC system (German) - Tool turret: 12 positions - Lathe chuck: 250 mm Hfodpfsugmzkjx Afcjf - Spindle: 70-3800 rpm (11 kW, 30 min; 7.5 kW - continuous operation) - Spindle bore diameter: 75 mm - X-axis travel: 400 x 0.001 mm - Z-axis travel: 500 x 0.001 mm - Cutting speed XZ: 0.01-1000 mm / U - Rapid traverse up to: 12,000 mm / min. - Power supply: 380V - Rated power of the machine: 21 kVA - Maximum load current: 36A - Machine dimensions (width x depth x height): 3.9 m (with chip conveyor) x 1.8 x 1.8 m - Machine weight: 4500 kg

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1988, operating hours: 23,103 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 652 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 412 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 452 mm, feed length X-axis: 652 mm, feed length Y-axis: 412 mm, feed length Z-axis: 452 mm, controller manufacturer: Okuma, controller model: OSP 5000, table width: 500 mm, table length: 1,000 mm, rotational speed (max.): 6,000 rpm, spindle speed (min.): 6,000 rpm, spindle speed (max.): 6,000 rpm, spindle nose: BT40, number of slots in tool magazine: 20, We are offering this used Okuma MC-4VA machining centre, year of manufacture 1988. Manufacturer: Okuma Model: MC-4VA Machine type: Vertical machining centre 3-axis CNC milling machine Travels: X-axis: 652mm Y-axis: 412mm Z-axis: 452mm Hfjdpfjx Saybox Afcof Spindle speed: 6000 rpm / 2 gear stages Tool changer: 20 tools Tool holder: BT40 Operating hours: 23,103 Control: OSP 5000 Programming: ISO code or IGF Data transfer: RS 232 The machine can be inspected under power. If you have any questions or need further information, please feel free to send us a message or give us a call.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2007, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 135667, turning diameter: 280 mm, spindle speed (max.): 4,000 rpm, travel distance X-axis: 210 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 330 mm, controller model: OKUMA OSP-T200L, workpiece length (max.): 200 mm, No minimum price – guaranteed sale to the highest bidder! The payment deadline for the machine is 20/11/2025! Placing a bid obligates the buyer to collect the machine between 01/12/2025 and 05/12/2025! TECHNICAL DETAILS Swing diameter over bed: 320 mm Max. turning diameter: 280 mm Max. workpiece length: 200 mm X-axis travel: 210 mm Hfodpfxsxnlh Te Afcof Y-axis travel: 330 mm C-axis travel (indexing): 360° Spindle speed: 40–4,000 rpm Spindle bore: 62 mm Number of tool stations in turret: 12 MACHINE DETAILS Control: OKUMA OSP-T200L Dimensions & Weight Dimensions (L x W x H): 5,000 x 1,500 x 2,400 mm Weight: 6,500 kg EQUIPMENT Feeder belt Three pallets Note: The tool holders and tools visible in the working area are not included in the scope of delivery or sale. Any oil mist extraction unit or pallets shown on the feeder belt in the photos are also not included in the sale or delivery.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2006, operating hours: 21,437 h, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 122574, Controller: OSP P200 L  Remarkably few spindle hours.    Max. turning diameter ø 720mm  2.000 mm distance between spindles  Spindle speed 3.500 rpm  Spindle power 30 kW  Sub-spindle; spindle speed 3.800 rpm  Spindle power 22 kW  Spindle speed aangedr. Ger 5.000 rpm  Spindle power aangedr. Ger. 22 kW  Number ger. Under 12 Turret  Upper mill spindle HSK100 ATC 32 HSK 100 Hodpfsurfz Iox Afceff   Y-axis 250 (+125 / 1-125) mm  Floor space: 6150 x 3073  

Condition: excellent (used), functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 0537, CNC: OSP-U100L X-axis: 1050 mm Y-axis: 560 mm Z-axis: 460 mm Table size: 1300 x 560 mm Number of tool pockets: 32 Spindle taper: BT50 Max spindle speed: 12,000 rpm Spindle motor power: 15 kW Machine dimensions: H=3200 x W=3000 x L=3400 mm Machine weight: 8,000 kg. Hsdpfx Aexlta Eofceff

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1988, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: M08L/8356, Offer Number: M08L/8356 Machinetype: 4 die - 4 blow transfer header Info: bushing cut-off , PKO Make: ASAHI OKUMA Type: AF1513-4 Constr. year: 1988 diameter range: 7-15 mm number of dies: 4 number of stations (incl. cut off): 5 cutting length: 10-160 mm shaft length under head: 15-130 mm output - pieces/min: 130 press power: 150 to Hodpfxewi S A As Afcjff Location: In our warehouse

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1988, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: M08L/8328, Offer Number: M08L/8328 Machinetype: 2 die - 3 blow transfer header Info: bushing cut-off , PKO Make: ASAHI OKUMA Type: RH60 Hfedpewi S Aijfx Afcof Constr. year: 1988 diameter range: 8,5 mm number of dies: 2 number of stations: 4 cutting length: 55 mm shaft length under head: 55 mm output - pieces/min: 200 press power: 30 to Location: In our warehouse

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1988, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: M08L/8001, Offer Number: M08L/8001 Machinetype: 2 die - 3 blow transfer header Info: bushing cut-off , PKO in 2nd and 3rd Make: ASAHI OKUMA Type: ORH120 Constr. year: 1988 diameter range: 14 mm number of dies: 2 number of stations (incl. cut off): 4 Hjdpfx Afswi S Rajcoff cutting length: 100 mm shaft length under head: 90 mm output - pieces/min: 100 press power: 120 to Location: In our warehouse

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1989, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: M08L/8327, Offer Number: M08L/8327 Machinetype: 2 die - 3 blow transfer header Info: bushing cut-off , PKO Make: ASAHI OKUMA Type: RH60 Constr. year: 1989 diameter range: 3-8,5 mm number of dies: 2 number of stations: 4 cutting length: 55 mm shaft length under head: 55 mm output - pieces/min: 200 press power: 30 to Hfodpfx Aewi S Apjfcof Location: In our warehouse

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2001, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 1067, travel distance X-axis: 1,050 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 560 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 450 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 40 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 40 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 40 m/min, nominal power (apparent): 28 kVA, torque: 80 Nm, controller manufacturer: Okuma, controller model: OSP-U100L, workpiece height (max.): 500 mm, workpiece weight (max.): 700 kg, table width: 560 mm, table length: 1,300 mm, spindle speed (min.): 40 rpm, spindle speed (max.): 15,000 rpm, operating hours of spindle: 15,000 h, coolant supply: 20 bar, spindle nose: BT-40, number of slots in tool magazine: 20, input voltage: 400 V, type of input current: AC, Equipment: documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, 3-axis machining center with internal cooling through the spindle, 15,000 rpm, permanent oil cooling of the spindle. Various tool holders (collets, drill chucks, Weldon holders, and milling head holders). 3 Gressel-Gripos 125 mm vises as new, additionally tool presetting device PWB Toolmaster 250. Hfsdpjw S Nc Refx Afcef

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1998, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 0014, turning length: 1,500 mm, turning diameter over cross slide: 610 mm, travel distance X-axis: 598 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 230 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 1,660 mm, TECHNICAL DETAILS Travel Distances X-axis travel: 598 mm Y-axis travel: 230 mm Z-axis travel: 1,660 mm C-axis: 0.001 Turning Length: 1,500 mm Swing diameter over cross slide: 610 mm Swing diameter: 580 mm Spindle Spindle motor power: 30,000 W Spindle speed (min.): 14 rpm Spindle speed (max.): 3,200 rpm Spindle bore: 90 mm Spindle bearing diameter: 130 mm Spindle nose: JIS A2-11 Rapid Traverse Rapid traverse (Z-axis): 20 m/min Rapid traverse (X/Y): 12,000 mm/min Rapid traverse (C): 100 min^-1 Cutting feed rate X/Z/Y: 0.001 - 1,000 mm/rev Tools Tool magazine positions: 32 pos. Tool holder: MAS BT 50 Max. tool diameter: 170 mm Max. tool length: 350 mm Max. tool weight: 20 kg Hfedpfx Asxqyikjfcsf Turret type: H2 ATC Tool stations: 2 (1x L-Tool / 1x M-Tool) Driven tool stations: stepless Spindle speed – driven tool stations: 40 - 3,000 rpm Tailstock Quill diameter: 120 mm Quill stroke: 170 mm Centre taper: MT 5 MACHINE DETAILS CNC Control: OSP 7000L Total power requirement: 53 kVA Dimensions & Weight Dimensions (L x W x H): 5.3 x 3.2 x 3.0 m Machine weight: 18,500 kg EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor