Used Maho 600 C for sale (432)

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2016, operating hours: 3,752 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 1,150 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 700 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 550 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 42 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 42 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 42 m/min, controller manufacturer: Heidenhain, controller model: 640, rotational speed (max.): 20,000 rpm, overall weight: 9,650 kg, spindle speed (min.): 20 rpm, spindle speed (max.): 20,000 rpm, operating hours of spindle: 1,615 h, coolant supply: 40 bar, spindle nose: SK40, number of slots in tool magazine: 120, input voltage: 400 V, type of input current: three-phase, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, Machine in very good technical condition! Bwsdpfx Acezaqz De Tjt

Condition: repair required (used), Year of construction: 2011, functionality: not functional, Maho DMC 635 Eco, Year of manufacture: 2011, Control system: Siemens 840 D, Travel range X/Y/Z: 635/510/460 mm, Tool changer: 20-position, SK 40, Spindle speed: up to 8,000 rpm, Table size: 790 x 560 mm, Bwedszh Uwkspfx Ac Tjt Chip conveyor, Machine weight: approx. 3800 kg, Ball screw on the X-axis needs to be replaced, Lamellar cover on the X-axis is defective.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2013, DMG DMC 65H duoBlock Horizontal machining center Year of manufacture: 2013 Operating hours: approx. 50,000 h Spindle hours: approx. 26,000 h Siemens Sinumerik 840D sl control system Bodpfeza Ezrox Ac Tjwt HSK 63 tool interface Spindle speed: 10,000 rpm 180-tool changer 10-position pallet changer (2-level, i.e., footprint equivalent to a 5-position pallet changer)

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2006, Parts shown by hand not come. Bedpfx Aozyakmoc Tjwt

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2007, x-travel 730 mm y-travel 560 mm z-travel 560 mm control iTNC 530 Heidenhain turning speed range - main spindle max. 18.000 min/-1 power capacity - main spindel 10 / 15 kW max. Torque 130 / 87 Nm tool taper HSK-A63 swivellable NC: ° table surface area 1.000 x 600 mm T-slots 9x 14 x 63 mm table diameter 600 mm rotatable C: 360 ° max. table load 500 kg number of toolpositions 60 pos. tool taper HSK-A63 total power requirement 40 kVA weight of the machine ca. ca. 11,0 t dimensions of the machine ca. 4,5 x 4,5 x 3,5 m CNC - MachiningCenter Universal DECKEL MAHO - DMU 60 monoBLOCK - 5 Axis - NC-Rotary-Table Bsdpfx Acowpw E Ne Tswt - Swivel-MillingHead

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2012, Ref. -No.: 10659 Manufacturer: DECKEL MAHO Type: DMC 835V Year of construction: 2012 Type of control: CNC Control: Haidenhein iTNC 530 Storage location: Halberstadt Country of origin: Germany Machine-No.: 1541XXX X-Travel: 835 mm Y-Travel: 510 mm Z-Travel: 510 mm Number of T-slots: 5 Max. Tool Weight: 6 kg Max. Tool Length: 250 mm Max. Tool Diameter: 80 mm Tool change time: 1,6 s T - groove width: 14 mm T - slot spacing: 100 mm Tool Taper: SK40 Numbers Of Tools In Magazin: 30 Spindle Speed: 12000 RPM Max. Torque: 130 / 87 Nm Turning Speed Range - Stepless: 30 mm / min Total Power Requirement: 35 kW Bjdpfx Acozw Tw Ue Towt Dimensions Of The Machine Ca.: 4,5 x 3,5 x 2,7 m Weight Of The Machine Ca.: 5 t Changeover time chip - chip: 6 sec Feed rate: 1 - 20.000 (X / Y / Z) High pressure cooling: 20 bar Further information: The machine can be inspected while powered on by prior arrangement.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2004, Technical details: Bwsdpfezp Dvrex Ac Tjt x-travel: 750 mm y-travel: 600 mm z-travel: 560 mm switched on hours: 78.328 h spindle hours: 38.073 h control: Heidenhain iTNC 530 tool changer with: 30 Plätze tool taper: HSK-A 63 feed speeds infinitely variable: 90 mm/min rapid traverse:: 90 m/min table-size: 950 x 650 mm table load capacity: 1000 kg total power requirement: 73 kVA Weight approx.: 11,0 t dimension machine approx.LxWxH: 4,9 x 4,3 x 3,15 m The DECKEL MAHO DMC 75 V linear is a highly precise vertical CNC machining center equipped with linear drive technology, making it ideal for 3-axis machining. *

Condition: used, MAHO MH 600 P Tool Milling Machine Bwjdozxhfvspfx Ac Tot Tool Milling Machine MAHO Type/Model MH 600 P Control Heidenhain TC 135 Condition Used Technical Data Travel (X / Y / Z): 500 mm / 400 mm / 400 mm Quill stroke: 80 mm Table dimensions: 720 mm x 140 mm Max. table load: approx. 500 kg T-slots: 8 pieces (spacing 54 mm) Tool holder: SK 40 / ISO 40 Spindle speed range: 40 to 2,000 rpm Spindle drive power: 4.0 kW Working feed rate continuously adjustable: 5 to 500 mm/min Rapid traverse speed (X / Z): approx. 1.2 m/min Rapid traverse speed (Y): approx. 0.8 m/min Connection voltage: 380 V / 50 Hz Machine weight: approx. 1,450 - 1,900 kg Space requirement (L x W x H): approx. 1.8 m x 1.5 m x 1.9 m

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2007, operating hours: 32,000 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 635 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 510 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 460 mm, Machine is being sold on behalf of the customer and can be inspected under power. Machine location: Czech Republic (Brno) Manufacturer: Deckel Maho Model: DMC 635V Year: 2007 Approx. 32,000 operating hours Control: Heidenhain iTNC 530 Spindle mounting: SK40 Speed: 10,000 rpm Travel (X/Y/Z): 635 / 510 / 460 mm Clamping surface (table): 790 x 560 mm 30-position tool changer + Blum laser tool measurement + Paper band filter / ICS 20 bar / 600 l + Chip conveyor Dimensions (approx.) LxWxH 260 x 390 x 240 cm Installation area 530 x 590 cm Weight: approx. 4,200 kg Bwedpfxoylmdfs Ac Tjt

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2009, functionality: fully functional, Vertical Machining Center DECKEL MAHO DMC 635V Year of manufacture: 2009 CNC control: Siemens 840D Axes X-axis travel (mm): 635 Y-axis travel (mm): 510 Z-axis travel (mm): 460 Distance spindle nose - table surface (mm): 720 Feed rate (m/min): 20 Rapid traverse (m/min): 30 Axis acceleration (m/s²): 5 Work Table Pallet dimensions (mm): 560×790 Max. workpiece weight (kg): 600 Spindle Max. spindle speed (rpm): 14,000 Spindle drive power (kW): 18.5/15 (40%ED/cont) Spindle torque (Nm): 100/74 Tool System Tool holder: SK40 Bsdpfeyay D Uox Ac Towt Number of tools in magazine: 20 Electronic handwheel Chip conveyor Blow air through spindle selectable via M function Direct measuring system XYZ Machine Operating Hours: Total power-on hours: 14,500 Spindle hours: 3,600 Connected power requirement (kVA): 35 Basic Machine: Dimensions/Weight Length (mm): 2,275 Width (mm): 3,288 Height (mm): 2,670 Weight: 4.5 t Including vices and tool holders

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2012, operating hours: 20,101 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 600 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 500 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 500 mm, nominal power (apparent): 70 kVA, controller manufacturer: Siemens, controller model: 3D-Control Siemens 840D, workpiece height (max.): 525 mm, workpiece diameter (max.): 500 mm, workpiece weight (max.): 240 kg, total height: 2,800 mm, total length: 4,700 mm, total width: 6,000 mm, table load: 240 kg, rotary table diameter: 500 mm, overall weight: 12,000 kg, spindle speed (min.): 18,000 rpm, operating hours of spindle: 20,101 h, coolant supply: 40 bar, number of slots in tool magazine: 60, tool length: 300 mm, tool weight: 6,000 g, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, CNC controller: 3D-Control Siemens 840D Axes X-axis travel mm: 600 Y-axis travel mm: 500 Z-axis travel mm: 500 C-axis degrees: 360º (0,001) B-axis degrees: -5 / +110º Distance spindle nose - table surface mm: 600 Feed rates m/min: 80 Rapid traverse m/min: 80 Acceleration in the axes m/s2: 10 Worktable Number of pallets: 2 Table dimensions mm: 500x500 Maximum workpiece size (D x H) mm: 500x525 Max. workpiece weight kg: 240 Spindle Spindle speed rpm: 18000 Spindle drive power kW: 35/25 (40%ED/cont) Spindle torque Nm: 130/87 (40/100%ED Cooling Cooling through the Spindle Center bar: 40 Tank capacity: 980 Tool system Tool holder: HSK-A 63 Tool magazine slots: 60 Tool changer: Double gripper With free neighboring places mm: 130 With occupied neighboring places mm: 80 Max. Tool Length mm: 300 Max tool weight kg: 6 Chip-to-chip time s: 4.5 Equipment Electronic Handwheel Chip conveyor Infrared probe Rinsing gun Mist collector Programmable coolant nozzles DXF import function Internal coolant supply Electrical cabinet active cooling unit Temperature compensation Paper band filter DMG AUTOshutdown DMG GREENmode DMG MACHINEcheck High-Speedd-Setting DMG Netservice-client DMG Service Agent Machine running times Under power: 35687 Bjdpfozd Agrsx Ac Towt Spindle Working: 20101 Rated power kVA: 70 Basic machine dimensions / weight Length mm: 4700 Width mm: 6000 Height mm: 2800 Weight kg: 12000

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2011, operating hours: 12,946 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 935 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 850 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 650 mm, controller model: Heidenhain iTNC 530 HSCI, spindle speed (max.): 15,000 rpm, No minimum price – guaranteed sale to the highest bidder! TECHNICAL DETAILS Travel range X-axis: 935 mm Travel range Y-axis: 850 mm Travel range Z-axis: 650 mm Number of axes: 3 Table length: 1,200 mm Table width: 850 mm Max. table load: 2,000 kg Spindle connection: HSK-A63 Bwedszwn Etopfx Ac Tot Spindle speed: 15,000 rpm Tool changer: 30-position Rapid traverse: 40 m/min Feed rate: 40,000 mm/min MACHINE DETAILS Control system: Heidenhain iTNC 530 HSCI Internal cooling: 40 bar / 23 liters/min Operating hours: 36,420 h Spindle hours: 12,946 h EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2008, Deckel Maho DMC 55H duoBlock Horizontal Machining Center Horizontal Machining Center Deckel Maho Type / Model DMC 55 H DuoBlock Year of Manufacture 2008 Condition Used Program Runtime: approx. 66,600 hours Spindle Runtime: approx. 46,500 hours Technical Data Travel distances X / Y / Z axes 560 mm / 600 mm / 600 mm Rapid traverse (X/Y/Z) 40 m/min (optional in the linear version or high-dynamics up to 60 m/min) Bwjdpszxc Ewjfx Ac Tst Work table & Pallet Changer (APC) Number of pallets 2-position pallet changer Pallet size 400 mm x 400 mm Max. workpiece weight 500 kg Max. workpiece height 850 mm B-axis (rotary table) 360° (designed as an NC rotary table, usually with 0.001° division) Main spindle Standard version 12,000 rpm (often with SK 40 / HSK-A63) High-speed option 18,000 rpm (standard with HSK-A63) Tool changer (ATC) Magazine positions Standard 60 stations Tool interface HSK-A63 (alternatively SK 40 or BT 40) Max. tool diameter 80 mm (with free neighboring positions up to 160 mm) Max. tool length 330 mm Dimensions, weight & control Machine weight approx. 11,000 kg to 13,000 kg (depending on magazine size and chip conveyor) Footprint (L x W x H) approx. 5.0 x 3.0 x 2.8 m (pure space requirement without peripherals) Control Siemens Sinumerik 840D Powerline / Solution (alternatively Heidenhain iTNC 530)

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2002, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 500 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 400 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 400 mm, feed rate X-axis: 5 m/min, feed rate Y-axis: 5 m/min, feed rate Z-axis: 5 m/min, spindle speed (max.): 4,500 rpm, Equipment: rotational speed infinitely variable, Dear Sir or Madam, For sale is a 3+2-axis CNC machining center, type Deckel Maho DMU50M. The Heidenhain TNC310 contouring control (also available with Siemens 810D!) makes the DMU a fully-fledged CNC machine for both production and training applications. Due to the absence of a tool changer and the conveniently positioned maintenance doors, the DMU50M requires very little space and can be positioned almost directly against a wall. The machine has been thoroughly tested in our workshop, is therefore in excellent condition, and is ready for immediate use. We look forward to receiving your inquiry! Delivery time: immediately available Machine no. xxxx Year of manufacture: 2002 Control: Heidenhain TNC310 or Siemens 810D (including Shopmill) Table design: Rotary and tilting table Speed: 20-4500 rpm, continuously programmable Feed rate: 0-5000 mm/min, continuously programmable Travel ranges X/Y/Z: 500/400/400 mm Tool holder: SK40 Bsdpfx Acev Sy Sfe Tswt Tightening system: pneumatic Handwheels: 3-axis electronic / B+C axes mechanical Weight: approx. 2800 kg Further equipment and accessories: upon request Our service promise to you: - We are a certified master machine shop - All machines are thoroughly checked - All lubricants and any worn parts are replaced in advance - Upon request, we can completely or partially overhaul the selected machine - About the paint color of the selected machine You can decide freely. - If you wish, you can order additional accessories such as tools, etc. directly. - If you wish, we can install additional accessories such as safety devices, etc. - We are happy to take care of shipping and/or installation.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Maho milling table for Maho milling machine MH 700 S, milling table for interchangeable pallets 500x630 mm, used, normal signs of wear, 100% functional, scope of delivery as shown in photos. ATTENTION: Please enquire separately for costs of packing and shipping! Bwedpfx Acjx Dw Iwe Tot

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2013, x-travel 635 mm y-travel 510 mm z-travel 460 mm control Sinumerik 840 D SL Siemens turning speed range - main spindle 20 - 10.000 min/-1 power capacity - main spindel 13 / 9 kW tool taper SK 40 DIN 69871 max. Torque 83 / 57 Nm tension force 8 kN table surface area 790 x 560 mm number of T-slots 4 + 1 T-slot - distance 100 mm T-slot - width 4x 14H12 / 1x 14H7 mm max. table load 600 kg table height over floor 720 mm Bodpfxjym Dz Rs Ac Tswt distance spindle nose and table 120 - 580 mm number of toolpositions 30 pos. Max. mould width 80 / (130) mm max. tool length 250 mm max. tool weight 6 kg max. total weight 80 kg change-time tool to tool 1,6 sec change-time chip to chip 6,0 sec rapid traverse 30 m/min feed speeds 1 - 20.000 mm/min Feed force max. 5 kN total power requirement 28 kVA weight of the machine ca. 3,8 t dimensions of the machine ca. 3,5 x 4,0 x 2,7 m CNC - MachiningCenter Vertical DECKEL MAHO - DMC 635 V New Design - ShopMill - WITHOUT perforated plate - WITHOUT clamping device - WITHOUT tools

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2006, travel distance X-axis: 1,040 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 600 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 500 mm, controller manufacturer: HEIDENHAIN, controller model: iTNC 530, total height: 2,800 mm, total width: 2,450 mm, table load: 800 kg, overall weight: 8,800 kg, spindle speed (max.): 12,000 rpm, number of slots in tool magazine: 30, product length (max.): 4,060 mm, number of axes: 3, This 3-axis DMG DECKEL MAHO DMC 104V linear was manufactured in 2006. It features an X-axis travel of 1040 mm, Y-axis travel of 600 mm, and Z-axis travel of 500 mm. The machine includes a robust table size of 1250 x 600 mm and a maximum table load of 800 kg. If you are looking to get high-quality machining capabilities, consider the DMG DECKEL MAHO DMC 104V linear vertical machining centre we have for sale. Contact us for further details. • Table size: 1250 × 600 mm • Condition: Good working condition • Note: Machine was purchased as retrofitted from DMG in 2011 and spindle was replaced for a new one in the past. Bwodozvxb Njpfx Ac Tot Additional equipment • Electrical cabinet air conditioning • Spindle temperature control • Internal mist separator for the working area • Workpiece probe Technical Specification Taper Size SK 40

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2011, operating hours: 34,300 h, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 1190 000077 3, travel distance X-axis: 800 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 800 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 800 mm, controller manufacturer: Siemens, controller model: Sinumerik 840D, workpiece weight (max.): 1,200 kg, total height: 3,100 mm, total length: 4,850 mm, total width: 4,350 mm, table width: 680 mm, table length: 680 mm, rotational speed (max.): 10,000 rpm, overall weight: 16,000 kg, spindle speed (max.): 10,000 rpm, operating hours of spindle: 13,400 h, coolant supply: 40 bar, input voltage: 4,000 V, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, DMG MORI DMC 80H duoBLOCK – 4-Axis Horizontal Machining Center with Pallet Changer – Used For sale is a used horizontal machining center, model DMG MORI DMC 80H duoBLOCK. The machine is currently still in productive operation and is reliably used for series production. It is primarily utilized for machining steel and cast materials. Condition: Fully functional and ready for operation. Inspection under power possible by appointment. Bwodpfx Acoy Iwdpo Tot Equipment: 4-axis machining Horizontal design for efficient chip evacuation Pallet changer to minimize non-productive times DuoBLOCK construction for high stability and precision Tool changer Spacious work area for complex components Further equipment details available on request Application area: Ideal for series production and demanding machining tasks in mechanical engineering, toolmaking, and industrial applications. Sales conditions: Price ex-foundation Disassembly, removal, loading, and transport to be arranged by the buyer Inspection by appointment possible Price negotiable Delivery according to EXW (Ex Works)

Condition: ready for operation (used), Maho milling head (Maho milling machine MH 700 S), used, normal signs of wear, 100% fully functional, scope of delivery as per photos. NOTE: Please enquire separately for costs of packing and shipping! Bedpfex Dw Iqjx Ac Tjwt

Condition: repair required (used), Year of construction: 1987, For sale is a small milling center, brand Maho, type 300 C. The power supply has a defect, but this can be repaired. Technical data: Year of manufacture: 1987 Type: MH 300 C CNC control: Phillips 432 Table: 550x275 mm Travel distances x/y/z: 300/350/220 mm Spindle taper: SK 40 Spindle speed: 20-4000 rpm Main drive: 3.3 kW Rapid traverse rate: 3 m/min Quill stroke: 50 mm Dimensions: 2000 x 2000 x 2000 mm Weight: approx. 1900 kg Bsdpfx Aoir U H Ejc Tswt Prices plus VAT. Inspection possible by appointment. Contact us, our team will be happy to assist you. Trade-in or exchange possible! Machine buying and selling PURCHASE / SALE OF PRODUCTION & METALWORKING MACHINES AND MORE. Do you need a high-quality but affordable metalworking machine for your production? Or do you want to sell yours? For more information or to contact us, please visit our website.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2001, x-travel 1000 mm y-travel 800 mm Bodpfx Acoztfx Ae Tewt z-travel 500 mm control Siemens 611

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2005, operating hours: 40,403 h, functionality: fully functional, Deckel Maho DMC 80H duo Block About the Machine: Extremely robust machine. Technical Specifications: - Control: Siemens 840D - Travel paths X, Y, Z axes: 800/800/800 mm Bwjdpfx Asyhwrcjc Tst - Travel path C axis: 360° - Clamping surface rotary table: 800 x 630 mm - Rapid traverse: 60 m/min - Spindle speed: 20 - 12000 rpm - Tool holder: SK50 - Tool magazine with 60 positions - Network connectivity - Automation interface available Equipment: - Internal coolant supply 50 bar with belt filter system - Work area rinsing system - Rinsing gun - Chip conveyor Inspection/Test under power at our facility is of course possible. We are pleased to offer transport, installation and commissioning at your location. Everything from a single source: We, Baumgärtner CNC GmbH & Co. KG, are a company specializing in: - Service - Maintenance - Overhaul - Automation of DMG machines and other renowned manufacturers. We support you! From machine purchase, transport and installation, to commissioning and subsequent maintenance or repair work, you can rely on us.

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2004, Deckel Maho DMC 60U hi-dyn 5-axis Control: Heidenhain iTNC 530 Spindle speed range: 12,000 rpm Spindle bore: SK40 Number of axes: 5 Travel path: X-axis travel: 600 mm Y-axis travel: 700 mm Z-axis travel: 600 mm Table: Outer length: 630 mm Outer width: 500 mm Internal cooling: Yes, with paper belt filter Bwjdpev Rvp Defx Ac Tjt Blohm tool sizing system Cooling pressure: 40 bar Machine equipped with two 650 x 500 mm pallets Machine equipped with 120 tool holders

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2000, CNC 5-Axis Universal Machining Center Deckel Maho DMC 80U hi-dyn Year of manufacture: 2000 Control: Heidenhain TNC 430 Travel range: X = 800 mm Y = 700 mm Z = 600 mm Speed range: 0 - 12,000 rpm Tool holder: ISO 40 Tool changer: 60-station tool magazine Bjdpfx Acsv Rvqbj Towt Table: 800 x 635 mm Drive: 10.0 kW milling spindle Pallet changer Internal coolant system with high-pressure pump and compact filter system Chip conveyor Spindle cooling Blohm tool dimensioning

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1985, operating hours: 29,192 h, spindle speed (max.): 4,000 rpm, total height: 2,988 mm, total width: 4,288 mm, overall weight: 9,000 kg, travel distance X-axis: 1,000 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 600 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 800 mm, product length (max.): 4,152 mm, number of axes: 3, This 3-axis MAHO MH 1000 C/A was manufactured in 1985. It has approximately 29,192 machine hours and includes manuals and documentation. The protective doors are partially disassembled but included. If you are looking to get high-quality machining capabilities, consider the MAHO MH 1000 C/A universal machining centre we have for sale. Contact us for further details. Bwedpfx Acjy Hizqe Tjt Tool interface ISO 50Quill stroke vertical spindle mm 100Spindle speed range rpm 20–4000Spindle speed override % 80–120Feed rate X Y Z mm/min 1–4000Feed force X Z N 8000Feed force Y N 24000Rapid traverse m/min 10Feed and rapid override % 0–140Table diameter mm 1250Table length mm 800Center bore mm 42 H7T-slots 7T-slot spacing mm 100Manual cross adjustment mm 275Table indexing ratio 1:120Table rotation per handwheel turn deg 3Table rotation per division deg 2Positioning resolution deg 0.001Increment per division mm 0.026Table swivel X-axis deg ±30Table swivel Y-axis deg ±30Table rotation deg 360Table clamping pressure bar 80Max table load kg 800Table weight kg 1100Frequency Hz 50Total connected load kVA 36Total load with coolant kVA 41Total load with coolant and tool changer kVA 46Positioning resolution mm 0.001Machine hours approx h 29192Condition currently idle not in operationDocumentation manuals availableProtective doors partially disassembled includedIncluded accessories none tool holders not includedTable axis one axis manual only not referenceable error present