Used Okuma Lu300 Mc 2Sc1000 for sale (1,995)

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2008, operating hours: 18,349 h, turning length: 1,000 mm, turning diameter: 340 mm, spindle speed (max.): 4,800 rpm, Produced in 2008, cutting time 18,349 h, OSP P200L, 4-axis double turret VDI40, A-turret VDI40 V12 with live tools, B-turret VDI40 V8, turning diameter 340 mm, turning length 1000 mm, standard spindle bore, main spindle 4800 rpm, tailstock, manual, touchsetter, chip conveyor, coolant station, in good working and geometric condition, optional tools available. Itodpfsyu N Uxox Amisg

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2004, functionality: fully functional, turning length: 1,000 mm, turning diameter: 350 mm, spindle bore: 62 mm, spindle speed (max.): 5,200 rpm, Equipment: chip conveyor, TECHNICAL DETAILS Swinging diameter over cross slide: 370 mm Turning length: 1,000 mm Swinging diameter: 350 mm Spindle bore: 62 mm Spindle speed (max.): 5,200 rpm MACHINE DETAILS Coolant pump: 8 bar EQUIPMENT Documentation/Manual Speed infinitely adjustable Itsdjy S S Anopfx Amiog A-turret VDI40, 12 stations (all powered) B-turret VDI40, 8 stations Touch setter for A & B turrets Tailstock, manual Chip conveyor Extraction system Bar feeder, Samsys Multi-3000

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2013, spindle speed (max.): 6,000 rpm, travel distance X-axis: 260 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 100 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 350 mm, spindle motor power: 11,000 W, total height: 2,250 mm, total width: 1,985 mm, overall weight: 4,050 kg, controller manufacturer: OKUMA, controller model: OSP P300L, product length (max.): 1,734 mm, number of slots in tool magazine: 12, number of axes: 3, This 3-axis Okuma LB2000EXII MC was manufactured in 2013. It features a maximum swing diameter of 580 mm and a maximum machining diameter of 360 mm. The machine includes a turret head with 12 tool positions and a rapid traverse speed of 25 m/min on the X-axis. If you are looking to get high-quality turning capabilities, consider the Okuma LB2000EXII MC horizontal turning machine we have for sale. Contact us for further details. • Chuck size: 6" Iedpjy Sgr Rofx Amistg • Max. swing diameter: 580 mm • Max. machining diameter: 360 mm • Max. machining length: 150 mm • Spindle power: 11.0/7.5; (15/11; 22/15) kW • Turret: • Tool positions: 12 • External tooling: 20 x 20 mm • Internal tooling: Ø 32 mm • Driven tool speed: 45–6000 rpm • Driven tool power: 5.5/3.7 (7.1/4.1) kW • Rapid traverse: • X-axis: 25 m/min • Y-axis: 12.5 m/min • Z-axis: 30 m/min • W-axis: — • C-axis: 200 rpm • Hours: • Total: 43,157 • Cutting: 18,671 Additional equipment • Bar feeder: IRCO MUK-7012 (bar Ø 6–70 mm, length 1250 mm) • Tool holders (including driven tool holders) • Collet chuck: Hainbuch SPANNTOP Technical Specification Counter Spindle No Driven Tools Yes

Year of construction: 2006, condition: ready for operation (used), Control Unit Brand OKUMA Model OSP-P200L Itedox D Nf Ijpfx Amieg This Okuma LU300-M was manufactured in 2006. A robust horizontal turning machine featuring a spindle bore of 62mm and speeds up to 5000 RPM. It includes dual turrets with 12 and 8 positions respectively, enhancing its versatility. Equipped with a Mayfran chip conveyor and OSP-P200L control for efficient operation. Consider the opportunity to buy this Okuma LU300-M horizontal turning machine. Contact us for more information about this machine. Application Types Turning

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2003, operating hours: 10,000 h, This 3-axis Okuma LB300-10000 MC was manufactured in 2003. It features a turning diameter of 340 mm, turning length of 1,000 mm, and 12 tool positions. Includes a chip conveyor and has been used in single-shift operations. Consider the opportunity to buy this Okuma LB300-10000 MC horizontal turning machine. Contact us for more information. • 12 tool positions • Chip conveyor • Single-shift operation Itedpfx Ajx Ut H Hsmisg • Without tools, fixtures, or clamping devices.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1989, x-travel 650 mm y-travel 410 mm z-travel 450 mm travel x vor 1000 mm Iodpsx U A Rnefx Amistg control mc4va

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1988, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: OSP5000M-G, OKUMA MC-30VA vertical machining center, high-reliability Japanese machine. Fully operational and complete machine, in use until recently. Main features: • Brand: OKUMA • Model: MC-30VA • CNC Control: OSP5000M-G • Year: 1988 • Vertical machining center with automatic tool changer • Very robust structure, typical of Japanese machines • Complete and non-cannibalized machine The machine can be seen under power at our workshop. Ideal for: • machine shops • technical schools • export to foreign markets • general machining purposes Iodpfx Amjyt E H Usietg Condition: operational. Sold as is. Loading and transport at buyer's expense.

Year of construction: 1998, condition: excellent (used), functionality: fully functional, TECHNICAL DETAILS x-way: 720 mm y-way: 630 mm z-way: 630 mm control: OKUMA OSP 7000 pallet size: 500 x 500 mm spindle speed: 10 - 5000 rpm tool holder: 10-fold pallet station tool holder: MAS BT 50 tool places: 200 pieces EQUIPMENT Itsdpsk R Tp Ujfx Amisg - tool breakage probe - Renishaw probe - High pressure coolant system - Coolant mist extraction system - Spindle load and torque monitoring - Thread milling - Chip conveyor The scope of delivery is not shown in the pictures but in the description text.

Year of construction: 2008, condition: good (used), functionality: fully functional, Machine is provided free loaded. TECHNICAL DETAILS turning length over bed / saddle: 670 / 480 turning length: max. 750 mm turning diameter: max. 430 mm Bar diameter: max. 102 mm Itsdpfx Amspgrzceieg speed: 42 - 4200 rpm travel X / Z: 300 / 840 mm rapid traverse: 30 / 25 m/min spindle power cont. / 30 min: 30 / 22 kW spindle nose: ASA 11 tool holder: 12 places tool size: 25 x 25 mm / 40 mm tool speed: 45 / 6000 rpm MACHINE DETAILS weight: 6700 kg dimensions: 4500 x 1900 x 2320 mm EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor tool presetting automatic door opening high pressure pump. 6 bar drive tools and various static tools (see picture)

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1998, travel distance X-axis: 260 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 1,020 mm, controller manufacturer: OKUMA, number of axes: 4, This 4-axis Okuma LU15 M-2SC 1000 was manufactured in 1998. It features two tool turrets, live tooling with C-axis capabilities, and synchronous tapping for enhanced productivity. The machine includes an integrated tool setter for precise measurements and a programmable tailstock for versatility. If you are looking to get high-quality turning capabilities, consider the Okuma LU15 M-2SC 1000 horizontal turning machine we have for sale. Contact us for further details. • Longitudinal Travel (X): 1020 / 995 mm • Cross Travel (Z): 260 / 140 mm • Turning Range: 340 mm • Swing Diameter over Bed Cover: 530 mm • Swing Diameter over Cross Slide: 380 mm • Spindle Nose: ASA-A2 / DIN 55026 Gr. 6 • Spindle Bore: 62 mm • Spindle Diameter in Front Bearing: 100 mm • Chuck Diameter: 200 mm • Main Drive: Motor spindle (hollow shaft motor) frequency-regulated 60% ED • Power (Main Drive): 22 kW • Max Torque: 412 Nm • Speed Range: 45 - 4,500 rpm • Speed Levels (Electrical): 2 • Feed Drive: AC servo motors, digitally regulated • Feed Range X/Z: 0 - 1,000 mm/U Itedpfxsy Nmi Ds Amisg • Rapid Traverse X/Z: 15 / 20 m/min • Power X, Z: 2.4/1.5 kW and 4/4 kW • Feed Force X, Z: 11/3.7 kN and 7/6.7 kN • Turrets: 2 tool turrets • Live tooling: Yes (C-axis and driven units) • Tapping: Synchronous tapping • Spindle interpolation: Automatic main spindle interpolation • Tool monitoring: Wear and breakage monitoring • Tool measurement: Integrated tool setter / measuring device • Tailstock: Programmable, towable with bed slide, automatic clamping • Tailstock quill: Controllable via M-command • Draw tube bore: 55 mm (partial hollow clamping cylinder) • Interface: DNC Interface RS-232C • Cooling system: Reinforced pump (8 bar at 30 l/min) • Programming: ONE TOUCH Dialog-NC (automatic work plan generation) Additional equipment • Chip conveyor (1,200 mm discharge height) Technical Specification Counter Spindle No Driven Tools Yes

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2013, This Okuma MCR-A5C30x65 gantry milling machine was manufactured in 2013. It features a robust 100 mm spindle, capable of speeds up to 4000 min⁻¹, and accommodates a maximum workpiece size of 2540 mm by 5540 mm. The machine supports a hefty 30,000 kg on its 2500 × 6300 mm table. Ideal for heavy-duty milling with a rapid feed rate of 20,000 mm/min. Contact us for more information about this machine. Machine Benefits Technical Machine Benefits Ijdpfox D S Eksx Amijtg • Dimensions of machine (lxwxh): 2500 mm x 6600 mm x 6350 mm / weight (kg): 59000 kg • Max workpiece width: 2540 mm / max workpiece length: 5540 mm • Table size (width × length): 2500 mm × 6300 mm /max load on table: 30000 kg table height from floor: 850 mm /effective width between columns: 3050 mm/ t-slot (width × number): 24h7 × 13 • Cutting feed rate: 1 to 10000 mm/min/ rapid feed rate: 20000 mm/min/ table movement x-axis: 6500 mm /x-axis travel: 6500 mm /y-axis travel: 3500 mm/ z-axis travel: 650 mm • Tool holder: bt50 + masz type/ tool storage capacity: 50 tools /max tool length: 300 mm • Power supply: 400v, 3 /phases, 50hz rated capacity: 513 kva /full load current: 741 a /peak current: 117/138 a /short circuit current: 18 ka • Spindle diameter: 100 mm /spindle speed: 30 to 4000 min⁻¹ • Large table size suitable for heavy loads. /extensive tool storage capacity. /high rapid feed rate for efficient operations.

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2007, operating hours: 14,500 h, functionality: fully functional, turning diameter over cross slide: 370 mm, turning length: 1,000 mm, turning diameter: 340 mm, spindle bore: 62 mm, spindle speed (max.): 5,000 rpm, total height: 1,900 mm, total length: 3,200 mm, total width: 2,200 mm, overall weight: 7,500 kg, Equipment: documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, OKUMA LB300MC1000, OSP P200L control, V12 turret VDI40, V12 driven tools VDI40, manual tailstock, chip conveyor, coolant pump, standard spindle 5000 RPM, touch setter, Isdpfx Aeymfmnomietg

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2022, travel distance X-axis: 260 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 115 mm, overall weight: 6,850 kg, controller manufacturer: OKUMA, controller model: OSP-P300LA, number of axes: 5, This 3-axis Okuma LB 3000 EX II was manufactured in 2022, featuring a robust horizontal turning capability. It includes an Iemca KID 80 bar feeder, a 250 mm SMW chuck, and a 170 mm Kitagawa chuck. With a main spindle motor power of 22 kW and rotational speeds up to 6000 rpm, it ensures efficient turning operations. If you are looking to get high-quality turning capabilities consider the Okuma LB 3000 EX II machine we have for sale. Contact us for more information. Itedox D Rvnopfx Amisg • Distance between spindle noses: 1085 mm • Maximum turning diameter: 340 mm • Bar capacity through main spindle draw tube: 80 mm • Sub spindle bore: 63 mm • Bar capacity through sub spindle draw tube: 52 mm • Rotational speed of driven tools: 45–6000 rpm Additional equipment • Iemca KID 80/16 Plus bar feeder (2022) — KID 80 included • 250 mm SMW chuck on the main spindle • 170 mm Kitagawa chuck on the sub spindle • 6 sets of soft jaws • 4 straight driven tool holders • 4 angled driven tool holders • 2 double turning tool holders • 4 boring bar holders • 8 standard turning tool holders • 8 straight ER holders with about 30 ER collets

Condition: like new (used), Year of construction: 2021, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: LU3000EX, Power kVA: 34.2 Ijdpfx Ajx Hg Eyjmiotg

Condition: excellent (used), Year of construction: 2013, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 6,500 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 3,500 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 650 mm, table length: 6,300 mm, table width: 2,500 mm, spindle speed (min.): 30 rpm, spindle speed (max.): 4,000 rpm, rapid traverse X-axis: 20,000 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 3,500 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 10,000 m/min, distance between stands: 3,050 mm, table load: 30,000 kg, overall weight: 59,000 kg, spindle nose: NT No.50, feed length W-axis: 1,300 mm, Okuma MCR-A5C gantry machining center (2013) with BT50 spindle, 6,500 mm X-travel and 30 t table load. Machine has approx. 5,700 cutting hours and 6,900 spindle hours, suitable for heavy and precise machining of large workpieces. Ijdpfxsx Tzyxo Amijtg

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2006, operating hours: 19,067 h, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 122616, travel distance X-axis: 500 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 95 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 1,650 mm, controller model: OKUMA OSP P200L, center width: 1,500 mm, TECHNICAL DETAILS Travel in X-axis: 500 mm Travel in Y-axis: 95 mm Travel in Z-axis: 1,650 mm Swing over bed: 550 mm Power: 22.0 kW Distance between centers: 1,500 mm Spindle bore: 80 mm Counter spindle speed: 4,500 rpm Tool magazine: 44 tools Tool holder: HSK-F63 Spindle speed: 12,000 rpm MACHINE DETAILS Control system: OKUMA OSP P200L Dimensions & Weight Dimensions (L x W x H): 5,100 x 2,800 x 2,900 mm Shipping weight: 13,700 kg Shipping packages: 7 pieces Operating hours: 19,067 h EQUIPMENT Automatic workpiece loader with controlled arm from Pneumotec Automatic bar feeder from LNS Quick Load Servo III Counter spindle VAC-MB11 Milling head with automatic tool changer Turret: 12 tool positions Chip conveyor Turret head Powered tools Bar loader 3-jaw chuck Tool magazine C-axis Iodpfxey Rxpre Amistg Documentation CE marking

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2011, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: PA158, turning length: 450 mm, turning diameter: 300 mm, workpiece weight (max.): 9 kg, workpiece length (max.): 150 mm, workpiece diameter (max.): 225 mm, No reserve price – guaranteed sale to the highest bidder! TECHNICAL DETAILS Turning length: 450 mm Turning diameter: 300 mm Max. workpiece diameter: 225 mm Max. workpiece length: 150 mm Max. workpiece weight: 9 kg MACHINE DETAILS Rated voltage: 380 V Number of phases: 3 Frequency: 50/60 Hz Maximum power consumption: 22.9 kVA Itodpjy R Uy Hofx Amieg Total current consumption: 34.8 A Maximum motor current: 72 A Short-circuit data / breaker capacity at: 15 kA Dimensions & weight Required space (L x W x H): approx. 2,550 x 2,150 x 2,100 mm Machine weight: approx. 4,900 kg Note: As other machines must be relocated for loading, the specified disassembly and loading costs apply.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2000, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 1938, turning length: 250 mm, turning diameter: 340 mm, spindle speed (max.): 4,500 rpm, workpiece length (max.): 850 mm, workpiece diameter (max.): 300 mm, No minimum price – guaranteed sale to the highest bidder! TECHNICAL DETAILS Itsdpfxey R Uxis Amieg Turning length: 250 mm Turning diameter: 340 mm Max. spindle speed: 4,500 rpm Max. workpiece diameter: 300 mm Max. workpiece length: 850 mm Workpiece clamping: Three-jaw chuck, Kitagawa B-210 MACHINE DETAILS Control: Okuma OSP 7000L Max. power: 22 kW Rated voltage: 400 V Number of phases: 3 Frequency: 50 Hz Max. power consumption: 30.1 kVA Total current draw: 43.4 A Max. motor current: 106 A Circuit breaker at: 10 kA Note: As other machines need to be moved for loading, the stated dismantling and loading costs apply.

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1998, functionality: fully functional, turning length: 280 mm, spindle speed (max.): 4,200 rpm, travel distance X-axis: 155 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 320 mm, controller model: OSP 700L, TECHNICAL DETAILS Maximum turning length: 280 mm X-axis travel: 155 mm Z-axis travel: 320 mm Spindle speed: 4,200 rpm Itsdpfxjy S S Hgo Amiog MACHINE DETAILS Control system: OSP 700L Turret: V12, direct mounting EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor Touch probe Coolant pump Parts collector Collet chuck

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2002, functionality: fully functional, spindle speed (max.): 3,200 rpm, overall weight: 6,500 kg, controller model: U-10L, TECHNICAL DETAILS Maximum turning diameter: 210 mm Maximum turning length: 500 mm X-axis travel: 155 mm Z-axis travel: 520 mm Itsdsy S Sytepfx Amijg Spindle speed: 3,200 rpm MACHINE DETAILS Control system: U-10L Dimensions & Weight Dimensions (L x W x H): 2,700 x 1,900 x 1,700 mm Total weight: 6,500 kg EQUIPMENT Documentation/Manual Adjustable spindle speed Parts catcher Touch probe V12 turret VDI 30 (all powered) Manual tailstock Chip conveyor Coolant pump Bar loader Samsys MUS-3000, year 2007 SMW chuck KNCS-N210-52

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 1999, operating hours: 12,500 h, functionality: fully functional, controller model: OSP 7000M, Equipment: chip conveyor, TECHNICAL DETAILS Tool changer: 24 BT40 MACHINE DETAILS Control system: OSP 7000M Iedpfxoy S Sw Ej Amijtg HS: Big Bore GS: Standard Bore Coolant pump: 8 bar Spindle hours: 12,500 h EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2008, operating hours: 10,500 h, functionality: fully functional, turning diameter: 630 mm, travel distance X-axis: 580 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 160 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 935 mm, controller model: Okuma OSP P200L, TECHNICAL DETAILS Diameter over slide: 630 mm Machining diameter: 630 mm Distance between centers: 900 mm Travel range X-axis: 580 mm Travel range Y-axis: 160 mm Travel range Z-axis: 935 mm Travel range W-axis: 1,000 mm Travel range C-axis: 360° Travel range B-axis: -30° to 195° Main spindle: 3,800 rpm Counter spindle: 5,000 rpm Milling spindle: 6,000 rpm Rapid traverse X-axis: 40,000 mm/min Rapid traverse Z-axis: 40,000 mm/min Rapid traverse Y-axis: 26,000 mm/min Rapid traverse W-axis: 20,000 mm/min Rapid traverse C-axis: 200 rpm Rapid traverse B-axis: 30 rpm Tool diameter max.: 90 mm Tool diameter without adjacent tools max.: 130 mm Tool length max.: 300 mm Tool weight max.: 10 kg MACHINE DETAILS Number of axes: 6 Itjdpfxjy S Swxo Amieg Control system: Okuma OSP P200L Dimensions & Weight Footprint: 4,340 × 2,050 mm Height: 2,600 mm Weight: 10,300 kg Spindle hours: 10,500 h EQUIPMENT Documentation/Manual Speed infinitely adjustable Marpos tool sensor Chip conveyor & coolant system with small band filter system ATC 60 system HSKA-63 (60 tools)

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2001, operating hours: 18,500 h, functionality: fully functional, travel distance X-axis: 700 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 800 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 700 mm, controller model: CNC OSP 100M, rotational speed (max.): 5,000 rpm, An optional tool package worth €10,000 can be purchased for €3,500! TECHNICAL DETAILS Travel range, X-axis: 700 mm Travel range, Y-axis: 800 mm Travel range, Z-axis: 700 mm Rotary table/B-axis: indexed in 1° steps, 360 positions Spindle speed: 25 - 5,000 rpm Type of input current: Three-phase Pallet size (2x): 500 mm x 500 mm Table size: 500 mm x 500 mm Table load: 800 kg Distance spindle nose to table surface: 150 mm - 850 mm Tool holder: MAS BT 50 Tool magazine (ATC): 60 positions, chain magazine Tool length max.: 450 mm MACHINE DETAILS Control: CNC OSP 100M Dimensions & Weight Dimensions (L x W x H): 5,500 mm x 3,160 mm x 3,300 mm Machine weight: 21,000 kg Itedpoy S S U Dsfx Amiog Spindle hours: 18,500 h EQUIPMENT Chip conveyor Coolant system Pocket filter system for internal cooling Spindle speed, continuously adjustable

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2002, operating hours: 9,675 h, functionality: fully functional, controller model: U100M, spindle speed (max.): 12,000 rpm, number of slots in tool magazine: 32, number of axes: 3, An optional tool package worth €10,000 can be purchased for €3,500! TECHNICAL DETAILS X-axis travel: 1,050 mm Y-axis travel: 560 mm Z-axis travel: 460 mm Main spindle: 12,000 rpm MACHINE DETAILS Control system: U100M Axes: 3 Tool changer (ATC): 32 SK40 Cutting time: 9,675 h EQUIPMENT Documentation/Manual Iodey S S Nnspfx Amijtg Speed infinitely adjustable Chip conveyor Coolant system Preparation for A-axis (4th axis)

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2004, functionality: limited functionality, travel distance X-axis: 560 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 610 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 625 mm, rapid traverse X-axis: 60 m/min, rapid traverse Y-axis: 60 m/min, rapid traverse Z-axis: 60 m/min, controller manufacturer: Okuma, controller model: OSP-E100M, workpiece length (max.): 600 mm, workpiece width (max.): 710 mm, workpiece weight (max.): 400 kg, total height: 2,760 mm, total length: 4,535 mm, total width: 2,415 mm, table width: 400 mm, table length: 400 mm, table load: 400 kg, overall weight: 10,000 kg, spindle speed (max.): 8,000 rpm, distance table center to spindle nose: 710 mm, spindle motor power: 15,000 W, spindle nose: BT40, number of spindles: 1, number of slots in tool magazine: 40, input voltage: 400 V, type of input current: three-phase, Equipment: chip conveyor, rotational speed infinitely variable, Okuma Space Center MA400HA Horizontal Machining Centre Machine Type: CNC Horizontal Machining Centre Year: 2004 Control: OSP-E100M Axes: 4 No. of Pallets: 2 Condition: Good - There is an issue with the pallet changer. Includes Cromar Swarf Conveyor Coolant Filtration System Technical Specifications Pallets: 2 Size of Pallets: 400 x 400mm X Axis Travel: 560mm Y Axis Travel: 610mm Z Axis Travel: 625mm B Axis Travel: 360 Deg Rapid Traverse: 60m/min Spindle Centre to Pallet Top: 50 - 660mm Spindle Nose to Pallet Centre: 85 - 710mm Itsdjwcd Evjpfx Amijg Max Pallet Load: 400kg Max Workpiece Dimensions: 600 x 710mm Tool Pockets: 40 Spindle Taper: BT40 Spindle Power: 15kW Spindle Speed: 8,000rpm Machine Dimensions: 4535 x 2415 x 2760mm Machine Weight: 10,000kg Notes: *Specifications are given in good faith but not guaranteed*