Used Linea Pack Horizontal Stretch Film Wrapping Machine for sale (67,548)

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1999, x-travel 560 mm y-travel 510 mm z-travel 510 mm Control MSC 502 distance spindle center to table 50 - 650 mm distance Spindlenose and center of table 100 - 610 mm turning speed range - main spindle max. 12.000 min/-1 power capacity - main spindel 22 / 18,5 kW tool taper MAS BT-40 spindle bearing diameter 70 mm numbers of pallets 2 size of pallet 400 x 400 mm max. workpiecediameter 580 mm max. workpiece height 650 mm switching time 90°: 2,5 sec change time of pallets 6,0 sec number of toolpositions 60 pos. tool taper MAS BT-40 max. tool diameter 80 mm max. tool-dia with free toolbox 125 mm max. tool length 300 mm max. tool weight 8 kg change-time tool to tool 1,5 sec change-time chip to chip 3,7 sec rapid traverse ( X / Y / Z ) 32 m/min feed speeds 1 - 24.000 mm/min Tipp feed 0 - 1.260 mm/min total power requirement 63 kVA weight of the machine ca. 9,0 t dimensions of the machine ca. 5,5 x 4,5 x 2,7 m Godpfx Afszczc Rokjbn CNC - Machiningcenter Horizontal MORI SEIKI - SH 400

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2013, total height: 2,240 mm, total length: 5,240 mm, total width: 2,500 mm, Empty weight: 2.700 kg - Year: 2013 - Documentation available: Yes - CE marking present: Yes - CE certificate present: No - Serial number: AA1/017355 - Number of milling spindles [pcs.]: 1 - └ Milling spindle 1: - - Number of controlled axes [pcs.]: 3 - - Max. spindle speed [rpm]: 24000 - - Main motor power [kW]: 9.5 - Type milling table: Beam table - Drilling unit present: Yes - └ Horizontal drill spindles [pcs.]: 6 - └ Vertical drilling spindles [pcs.]: 12 Gsdpfx Afswnii Rokjbn - Saw unit present: Yes - System/software: SCM Maestro - Working range X [mm]: 3050 - Working range Y [mm]: 1250 - Z-axis working range [mm]: 1810 - Y-axis maximum stroke [mm]: 1550 - Voltage [V]: 400 - Current consumption [A]: 31 - Transport dimensions: 5240mm x 2500mm x 2244mm (l x w x h) - Transport weight [kg]: 2700kg - Transport packages [pcs.]: 1 Financial information VAT: The price shown is exclusive of VAT VAT/margin: VAT deductible for entrepreneurs Delivery and trade-in always possible for everything in the industrial sectors Glenn Smeets

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2012, total height: 2,000 mm, total length: 4,500 mm, total width: 2,350 mm, Empty weight: 1.530 kg - Details: - └ Description: Including dust extraction - Year: 2012 - Documentation available: Yes - CE marking present: Yes - CE certificate present: Yes - Serial number: 18966 - Number of milling spindles [pcs.]: 1 - └ Milling spindle 1: - - Number of controlled axes [pcs.]: 3 - - Main motor power [kW]: 11 - Type milling table: Flat table - Tool clamping system: HSK-F63 - Material clamp system: Pneumatic - Tool changer positions [pcs.]: 12 - System/software: BiesseWorks - Safety feature: Enclosed fence, Safety light curtain - Vacuum pump present: Yes - └ Number [pcs.]: 1 Godpfx Afsyz Ad Iekjbn - └ Brand: Busch - └ Type: MM 1322 A VM8 - └ Year of manufacture: 2012 - └ Main motor power [kW]: 6 - └ Capacity [m³/h]: 360 - └ Connection diameter [mm]: 70 - └ Vacuum pressure [bar]: 300 - Table length [mm]: 3100 - Table width [mm]: 1500 - Working range X [mm]: 3309 - Working range Y [mm]: 1703 - Z-axis working range [mm]: 120 - Current consumption [A]: 24 - Power [kW]: 14.2 - Transport dimensions: 4500mm x 2350mm x 2000mm (l x w x h) - Transport weight [kg]: 1530kg - Transport packages [pcs.]: 2 Financial information VAT: The price shown is exclusive of VAT VAT/margin: VAT deductible for entrepreneurs Delivery and trade-in always possible for everything in the industrial sectors Glenn Smeets

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2018, Colour: White Price: On request CNC machining centre SCM ACCORD 25 FX Brand SCM Type ACCORD 25 FX  Year of construction 2018 Machine no. AA10000992 Machining table dimensions 5020x1380 mm (LxW) Worktable equipped with 2 vacuum fields Worktable equipped with 2 reference lugs Including 8 reference lugs and 8 supports  Gbjdpfx Asycwupofkon Speed XY, vector 35 m/min Movement axes Maximal speed X axis 25 m/min (pro space) Maximum speed X axis 90 m/min (pro speed) Maximum speed Y axis 90 m/min Maximum speed Z-axis 30 m/min Control unit Machine control KVARA control Windows Embedded Standard 7-64bit Hard disk storage capacity 500GB-7200rpm Microprocessor Intel Pentium-2.9GHz RAM memory 8GB-DDR4 XILOG-MAESTRO software package Including vacuum pump  Motor power 5.5 kW Pump capacity 250m3/hour Vacuum pressure maximum 0.9 bar Total dimensions 9000x4500x3000 (LxWxH) Total weight 7,500 KG.  - Year: 2018 - Documentation available: No - CE marking present: Yes - CE certificate present: No - Serial number: AA10000992 - Number of milling spindles [pcs.]: 2 - └ Milling spindle 1: - - Number of controlled axes [pcs.]: 3 - - Min. spindle speed [rpm]: 6000 - - Max. spindle speed [rpm]: 18000 - - Main motor power [kW]: 15 - └ Milling spindle 2: - - Number of controlled axes [pcs.]: 3 - - Min. spindle speed [rpm]: 600 - - Max. spindle speed [rpm]: 24000 - - Main motor power [kW]: 12 - Type milling table: Beam table - Tool clamping system: HSK-F63 - Tool changer positions [pcs.]: 12 - System/software: SCM Maestro - Safety feature: Bumper guard - Vacuum pump present: Yes - └ Number [pcs.]: 1 - └ Brand: Becker - └ Main motor power [kW]: 5.5 - └ Capacity [m³/h]: 250 - CNC options: Offcut conveyor - Table length [mm]: 5020 - Table width [mm]: 1380 - Working range X [mm]: 5020 - Working range Y [mm]: 1300 - Z-axis working range [mm]: 250 - X-axis maximum stroke [mm]: 5400 - Y-axis maximum stroke [mm]: 1650 - Z-axis maximum stroke [mm]: 450 Financial information VAT: The price shown is exclusive of VAT VAT/margin: VAT deductible for entrepreneurs Delivery and trade-in always possible for everything in the industrial sectors Glenn Smeets

Condition: ready for operation (used), Year of construction: 2014, travel distance X-axis: 1,626 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 1,270 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 813 mm, table width: 1,270 mm, table length: 1,400 mm, table load: 4,535 kg, overall weight: 20,800 kg, spindle speed (max.): 7,500 rpm, CNC Haas with 15-inch LCD screen Table size: 1400x1270 mm Maximum table load: 4,535 kg Spindle ISO 50, power 22.4 kW Gbjdpeypv T Rjfx Afksn Maximum spindle speed: 7,500 rpm Travels: 1626x1270x813 mm 50-position tool changer Chip conveyor Weight: 20,800 kg

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2006, 1 used 4-axis horizontal machining center Brand Haas Type EC 1600 Year of manufacture 2006 Travel ranges X-axis 1626 mm Y-axis 1270 mm Z-axis 813 mm Spindle centerline to table 304 mm Spindle SK 50 Max. rated power 22.4 kW Max. speed 7500 rpm Max. torque 460.0 Nm 700 rpm Table size Length 1626 mm Width 914 mm T-slot width 16.00 mm T-slot center-to-center distance 125 mm Number of T-slots in standard configuration: 7 Max. load capacity on table (evenly distributed) 4536 kg Integrated 4-axis (B-axis) Table 1626 mm x 813 mm mm Clamping surface diameter 762 mm Adjustability 360° Max. workpiece swing diameter 1270 mm Table load 4536.0 kg Max. rated power 3.7 kW Rotational torque (continuous) 2712 Nm Backlash 30 arc-sec Gear ratio 500:1 Braking torque 5423 Nm Minimum resolution 0.001° Indexing accuracy ± 30 arc-sec Repeatability 15 arc-sec Rapid traverse rate on B axis 36°/sec Max. feed rate for machining on B axis 36°/sec Spindle centerline to table 146 mm Max. feed rate for machining in x, y, and z axes 12.7 m/min Rapid traverse rate on X axis 15.2 m/min Rapid traverse rate on Y axis 15.2 m/min Rapid traverse at Z 15.2 m/min Gbjdpfx Afev N Di Aeksn Axis motors 30-station tool changer Max. tool diameter (full) 102 mm Max. tool diameter (adjacent positions empty) 254 mm Max. tool length 508 mm Max. tool weight 13.6 kg Tool-to-tool (average) 8.00 s Chip-to-chip (average) 12.60 s General information Coolant tank capacity 360 L Dimensions Domestic pallet 488 cm x 366 cm x 346 cm Export crate 488 cm x 366 cm x 348 cm Weight 13608.0 kg

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 1998, Used Kitamura machining centers Type: Mycenter 2X Yasnac CNC control Max. spindle speed: 10,000 rpm Excl. clamping on the table Tool holder: SK 40 X: 610 mm Y: 510 mm Gsdpfx Aey U I H Iefkjbn Z: 510 mm Tool changer

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2010, x-travel 1000 mm y-travel 1000 mm z-travel 1000 mm Control Heidenhain iTNC 530 tool taper SK 50 number of tool places 120 Pos. On-time hours ca. 66737 h spindle hours ca. 36316 h In our opinion, the machine is in good used condition and can be inspected under power by appointment. Technical Features & Accessories: - Fully protective cabin with sliding doors and interior lighting - Setup room - Tool measurement in the work area with BLUM laser - 3D measuring probe - Operating modes 3 bar internal coolant supply with 600 l tank and paper belt filter - Chip flushing gun with 1 bar/ l pump - Chip conveyor - Brankamp monitoring system - 3-color signal light - Coolant ring nozzle - Blow-air cooling system - Coolant system Godpfx Aezcq Dqjfkjbn - Oil/emulsion mist separation system - Control cabinet cooling unit - Operating manuals Accessories, tools, and clamping devices shown are only included in the scope of delivery if noted in the additional information. Subject to changes and errors in the technical data and information, as well as subject to prior sale!

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2014, - Machine available from: 2026-03-30 - Year: 2014 - Documentation available: Yes - CE certificate present: Yes - Serial number: AA1/017825 - Number of milling spindles [pcs.]: 1 - └ Milling spindle 1: - - Number of controlled axes [pcs.]: 5 - Type milling table: Beam table - Tool clamping system: HSK-F63 - Drilling unit present: Yes - Tool changer positions [pcs.]: 12 - System/software: SCM Maestro - Safety feature: Safety light curtain, Enclosed fence - Vacuum pump present: Yes - └ Number [pcs.]: 1 - └ Brand: Becker - └ Type: VTLF 2.250/0-791 - └ Year of manufacture: 2014 - └ Main motor power [kW]: 5.5 - └ Capacity [m³/h]: 244 Godpfx Aox Hwhxofkobn - └ Vacuum pressure [bar]: 200 - CNC options: Manual control - CNC documentation available: USB stick - Working range X [mm]: 5200 - Working range Y [mm]: 1550 - Z-axis working range [mm]: 160 - Installed length [mm]: 9000 - Installed width [mm]: 5000 - Installed height [mm]: 3100 Financial information VAT: The price shown is exclusive of VAT VAT/margin: VAT deductible for entrepreneurs Delivery and trade-in always possible for everything in the industrial sectors Glenn Smeets

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2018, operating hours: 1,850 h, total height: 2,200 mm, total length: 4,550 mm, total width: 2,200 mm, Colour: White Empty weight: 3.000 kg - Year: 2018 - Documentation available: No - CE marking present: Yes - CE certificate present: Yes - Serial number: AH00000267 - Operating hours: 1850 - Number of milling spindles [pcs.]: 1 - Type milling table: Beam table - Tool clamping system: HSK-F63 - Drilling unit present: Yes - Saw unit present: Yes - Safety feature: Enclosed fence - Vacuum pump present: Yes - └ Number [pcs.]: 1 - └ Brand: Becker - └ Main motor power [kW]: 2.2 - └ Connection diameter [mm]: 33 - └ Oil free: Yes - Working range X [mm]: 3050 - Working range Y [mm]: 1250 - Z-axis working range [mm]: 130 - Installed length [mm]: 7000 - Installed width [mm]: 4000 - Installed height [mm]: 2400 - Transport dimensions: 4550mm x 2200mm x 2200mm (l x w x h) - Transport weight [kg]: 3000kg - Transport packages [pcs.]: 3 Financial information VAT: The price shown is exclusive of VAT VAT/margin: VAT deductible for entrepreneurs Gedpfx Ajy U Hmyofkobn Delivery and trade-in always possible for everything in the industrial sectors Glenn Smeets

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2023, operating hours: 2,594 h, functionality: unexamined, machine/vehicle number: 6000030, total height: 3,400 mm, total length: 8,000 mm, total width: 6,000 mm, overall weight: 27,523 kg, number of spindles: 1, Equipment: chip conveyor, Installation dimensions: 8000 x 6000 x 3400 mm Weight: 27,500 kg Operating hours: 2,594 h KNOLL aerosol extraction system AerosolMaster 4000 ATS S/N 1580192 Year of manufacture: 2022 KNOLL chip conveyor 750 K-1 S/N 1591356 Gjdpfx Aezbt D Dsfkobn Year of manufacture: 2023

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2017, 4 axes Travel range: X = 730 mm, Y = 730 mm, Z = 880 mm Gedpfszcxwfex Afkjbn High pressure: 70 bar Tool holder: HSK-A63 Knoll KF 110/700 Pallet changer / shuttle table Number of tool stations: 60 Chip conveyor

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2002, Ref. -No.: 10633 Gbsdpfszc D Enex Afkjn Manufacturer: ANAYAK Type: VH Plus 2000-MG Year of construction: 2002 Type of control: CNC-Steuerung Control: Heidenhain Storage location: Halberstadt Country of origin: Germany serial number: M200XXX X-Travel: 2000 mm Y-Travel: 1500 mm Z-Travel: 1500 mm No. Of Working Stations: 90 Control: 106.253 H machine: 93.170 H Program run: 41.859 H Head and turntable: 1600 x 1450 mm

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2008, Ref. -No.: 10335 Manufacturer: HüLLER HILLE Type: NBH 170 Year of construction: 2008 Type of control: CNC-Steuerung Control: Sinumerik 840D pl Storage location: Halberstadt Country of origin: Germany X-Travel: 1000 mm Y-Travel: 800 mm Z-Travel: 800 mm B-Axis: 360 ° Distance spindle center - table: 150 mm Table Dimensions (Lengthxwidth): 500 x 630 mm Table Load: 800 kg Max. Workpiece Weight: 40 kg Max. Tool Length: 650 mm Max. Tool Diameter: 325 mm Workpiece Diameter At Full Load: 100 mm Tool Taper: HSK - 100 Spindle Speed: RPM Rapid Traverse: 60 m / min Machine length: 9500 mm Godpfxozc Dylj Afkobn Machine width: 4500 mm Machine Height: 3500 mm Further information: Coolant system = 1250 l

Condition: good (used), Year of construction: 2013, functionality: fully functional, Fanuc Oi-MD control system, 40-position automatic tool changer, spindle mount conforming to DIN 69871-SK40, internal coolant supply, dual-pallet system, pallet size 500x500 mm, Gbodpfx Afezcxh Roken chip conveyor, coolant system with filtration.

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2025, functionality: fully functional, warranty duration: 12 months, type of input current: AC, product width (max.): 400 mm, input voltage: 230 V, MINIPACK MEDIA The Minipack MEDIA is a compact, semi-automatic packaging machine featuring L-shaped sealing and an integrated shrink tunnel. Its monoblock design makes the machine particularly space-saving. – Teflon-coated sealing bars for reduced smoke emission – Production capacity up to 750 pieces per hour – Sealing bar dimensions: 540 × 400 mm – Max. film roll width: 600 mm Gbodpfx Afox Ttbhsksn – Max. film roll diameter: 350 mm – Tunnel entry dimensions: 440 × 240 mm – Working table height: 875 mm – Machine dimensions (closed): 2,780 × 730 × 1,400 mm – Machine weight: 286 kg (net) – Motorized waste rewinder as standard

Condition: new, Year of construction: 2025, functionality: fully functional, warranty duration: 12 months, type of input current: AC, product width (max.): 400 mm, input voltage: 230 V, Minipack Replay 55 EVO The Minipack Replay 55 EVO is a manual shrink film packaging machine with hood, designed for medium production volumes. – Throughput up to 300 units per hour – Usable sealing bar dimensions: 540 × 390 mm – Max. product dimensions: 500 × 380 × 200 mm Gbsdpsx Tr N Djfx Afken – Max. film roll dimensions: Ø 250 × 600 mm – Working table height: 925 mm – Machine dimensions (closed): 1,260 × 810 × 1,165 mm – Machine dimensions (open): 1,260 × 810 × 1,310 mm – Machine weight (net/gross): 105 / 126 kg

Condition: used, Year of construction: 1996, functionality: fully functional, machine/vehicle number: 123426, travel distance X-axis: 1,200 mm, travel distance Y-axis: 1,000 mm, travel distance Z-axis: 800 mm, controller manufacturer: Siemens, controller model: Sinumerik System 800 - 840C, workpiece weight (max.): 2,000 kg, table width: 630 mm, table length: 800 mm, overall weight: 24,000 kg, spindle speed (min.): 10 rpm, spindle speed (max.): 2,300 rpm, spindle motor power: 22,000 W, number of spindles: 1, number of slots in tool magazine: 161, Equipment: chip conveyor, documentation/manual, rotational speed infinitely variable, We are offering this used Dörries Scharmann Solon 2 DBF horizontal machining center, year of manufacture 1996. Manufacturer: Dörries Scharmann Model: Solon 2 DBF Year of manufacture: 1996 Condition: used Category ID: 1289 Godeyu Srtepfx Afksbn Type ID: 4161 Machine type: horizontal machining center If you have any questions or require further information, please feel free to send us a message or give us a call.

Condition: reconditioned (used), Year of construction: 2005, machine/vehicle number: 3069 / BM5132, BM5132 Professional wrapper with stretch film height adjustment Gedeqpgl Repfx Afkebn Wrapping height approx. 2,500 mm Turntable diameter 1,600 mm max. load 1,600 kg Film roll width 500 mm Weight approx. 500 kg Supply voltage 400V - 50 Hz - 3 Ph

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2010, Turntable load 2.000 mm Max. pallet length 1.200 mm Max. pallet width 1.000 mm Gbjdpfxozbvhro Afkon Max. pallet height 2.250 mm Max. film diameter 300 mm Max. film width 500 mm Maximum turntable speed 14 U/min dimensions 2,85 x 1,52 x 1,50 m In our assessment, the machine is in good used condition and can be inspected under power by appointment. Accessories, tools, and clamping devices shown are only included in the scope of delivery if this is noted in the additional information. Technical data and specifications are subject to change without notice and errors. Prior sale is reserved.

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2003, Technical details: x-travel: 450 mm y-travel: 450 mm z-travel: 450 mm weight of the machine ca.: 14 t size of pallet: 320 x 320 mm number of spindles: 2 Gjdsw Ng D Hjpfx Afkjbn Double spindle 4-axis machining center Horizontal 4 machine plates Renishaw probe Control Siemens Sinumerik 840D Working space (X / Y / Z): 450x450x450 mm Load pallet / table max .: 300 kg Acceleration: 10 m / s² Rapid traverse: 60 m / min Pallet size: 320 x 320 mm Chip-to-chip time: 2.6 s Workpiece height max .: 700 mm Tool holder: HSK 63 Tool places: 2x 60 Tool spindle: 10,000 rpm, 95 Nm Speed ??increase to 18,000 rpm Infrared receiver for probe, Make Renishaw Vaf72a0p Tool magazine with 60 places Control panel on the workstation Control panel on the tool installation site Workpiece positioning stations can be rotated manually with hydraulic workpiece clamping 60 bar Pneumatic support control on the workstation Automatic swing gate Extended coolant layer 70 bar / 1500I / VF 250 Coolant Cooler Working space flushing Emulsion mist suction Roto - Clear Automatic setup process Automatic disarming process Runtime and quantity recording Status lamp 3-color modem for remote diagnosis control cabinet lighting *

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2002, Technical details: spindle speed:: max. 12000 tool taper: HSK 80 . b-axis: 360 x 0,001 ° worktool support (A-axis): ° weight of the machine ca.: 25 500 Kgs. x-travel: 800 mm Gedpfx Ajwdywdsfkobn y-travel: 700 mm z-travel: 630 mm dimensions of the machine ca.: 6200 x 3000 x 3200 mm pallet size:: 500 x 500 mm no. of tools in the magazine: 61 Nos. Weight approx.: 23,5 t Horizontal Machining Center with CNC Control System SIEMENS 840 C in well maintained condition. Single spindle *

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2020, x-travel 810 mm y-travel 610 mm z-travel 640 mm b-axis 360 ° Control Ultimax spindle tunring speed 8.000 U/min power capacity 56 kW tool taper SK 50 rapid traverse 45/40/45 m/min auto power on hours ca. 13.674 h spindle hours ca. 4.211 h In our assessment, the machine is in good used condition and can be inspected under power by appointment. Technical features & accessories: - Internal coolant system 40 bar - Dual pallet changer 500mm x 500mm with clamping tower and zero-point clamping system (Quant) Accessories, tools, and clamping devices shown are only included in the Gbsdpfxezbmzvo Afken scope of delivery if this is noted in the additional information. Subject to changes and errors in the technical data and specifications, as well as prior sale!

Condition: used, Year of construction: 2009, 1 unit horizontal bending machine KUNKEL MB10 Gbodszclukopfx Afken Capacity: 10 tons, operating voltage: 400V, 1.1kW Color: as shown in the pictures, in accordance with the images and upon inspection Year of manufacture: 2009 Condition: used Location of the goods: production hall Payment method: prepayment by bank transfer Shipping: self-collection only from the Coburg location

Condition: new, Number of boring spindles 1 St. Boring depth max. 150 mm Motor output 1,8 kW Götzinger HR 150 - Hoffmann system ----- The machine that gives you the highest precision when drilling two levels guaranteed. Frame and slot drilling machine, enables drilling in two levels in one clamping. - Well thought-out, precise and practical stop system - particularly smooth and play-free grid positioning, Feed and transverse adjustment - Guidance systems for the highest demands - Special drill chuck - precise, quiet concentricity - for drilling levels via digital display - Two side stops offer enormous advantages, center stop on request - Continuous front stop with position markings - Drilling pattern depending on the wood profile - free choice, in a 12 mm grid Special grids also possible - integrated dust extraction - the exchangeable additional equipment (e.g. drill heads, Miter stops, parapet railing device, side and folding stops) can be easily installed without tools. and dismantle. Technical data: Drilling unit ----- Height adjustment in 2 levels via digital display Height adjustment 100 mm pneumatically Drilling stroke/depth 150 mm by hand Transverse adjustment 320 mm via grid Drilling pattern width 12 mm pitch, standard Three-phase motor 230/400 V, 50 Hz, 1,420/2,840 rpm, 1.3-1.8 KW Tool holder ----- Special drill chuck with 2 tool changing inserts 1 x M10, 1 x D 16 stop system ----- 2 side stops can be swiveled in/out 1 longitudinal stop (tube) with adjustable folding stop approx. 1500 mm Elongated hole stop left and right Workpiece clamping ----- pneumatically via foot valve Dust extraction Special accessories - see PDF attachment ----- Gjdpsytx T Iefx Afkebn Price of the above mentioned machine on request! ----- Recommended accessories (additional charge): Two-jaw chuck 2–20 mm, replacement part: EUR 648.00 Chassis: EUR 295.00 2 workpiece support arms (left/right), approx. 800 mm, swivelling: EUR 1,298.00 ----- (technical data according to manufacturer - no guarantee!)